Curse

eggs0wn · Dec 05, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Wo, a lot of input, thanks! I haven't farmed him anymore per-say but I'll go to Honur Hill and kill him every once and awhile, still haven't gotten it. But now I have completed the game so I'm pretty content with my Forgotten Spear.

Eviance · Dec 05, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Bastian, Gaile posted confirmation.

Bastian · Dec 05, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eviance

Bastian, Gaile posted confirmation.

Ya, I noticed that as I kept reading throught the forum. Although, I'm still not sold just because she said so. I know she has direct contact with the devs, but experience tells me otherwise. Oh well, I farm solo usually anyways, so I just gotta cross my fingers.

Cacheelma · Dec 06, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

Sorry, duplicate post...

Yeah, right....

By reading your first post, I wonder if you even bother to READ this whole thread.

If you did, how could you miss my post? As in, this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

Try this:

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthrea...70#post4297070

As in...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile

...

And no, the drop rate would not be affected by the number of people playing in an area. Each mission is individual and has its own mathematics -- it's not that there are 10 items to drop stretched across 100 rather than 25 groups.

No more myth, please. I don't think we'd want Gaile to repeat herself on the same issue over and over and over and over again. And I'm sure as hell don't want to re-search and post this same reply over and over and over again across so many forums.

Feel free to argue with Gaile, if you have to. But I don't think you should though. Because when compare to Gaile, you know basically a lot less about GW.

MerLock · Dec 06, 2006, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myria

I'm curious as to how you can be so certain. It's not that I think you're necessarily wrong, it's just that we do not know the code -- I could certainly see a "we only want 'X' number of these entering the economy per day" clause in the code -- and I can't think of any effective way to test it one way or another.

I think it would be kinda stupid if it was true. That way the farmers would have a monopoly on the items and rune the game for others.

But since the boss is near the zone, if you keep going out and killing that grp and rezoning repeately , you'll prob. get flagged for farming.

Also, before, enemies near the beginning of a zone doesn't drop much. Not sure if that has been changed.

Paperfly · Dec 06, 2006, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

EDIT: I did your "greyed out" farm and solo'ed the boss (after my heros were standing nearly clear across the map) and guess what the boss dropped? Nothing. Now if this had worked he would of dropped something even if it were only gold.

Not necessarily the case - monsters can drop nothing, particularly if you've got farming-code on you. As plendy of dead minotaurs can attest.

/goes off to test, since it's been a couple of weeks and something might have changed.

I killed mister Jishol Darksong six times with Dunkoro in range and six henches greyed out. Two blanks, two gold drops, and two items - so pretty much exactly what you'd expect from a 2-man farm run.

...Yeah, I know, my sample size sucks, but my connection was acting up towards the end there. I'll go solo-kill (+7 grey) an Istani boss later and see how the figures go.

Update: Nope, 'net really doesn't want to co-operate. For what it's worth, the very first kill got me a Jinzuu's Sanctuary!

Ess Age · Dec 06, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

I don't want to be rude or something, but everyone wandering through the world of GW with open eyes must see that there is a strong correlation between (especially gold) drop rates and the amount of people in an area (not an instance) AND more importantly does not see an contradiction in Gaile's post:

Quote:

And no, the drop rate would not be affected by the number of people playing in an area.Each mission is individual and has its own mathematics -- it's not that there are 10 items to drop stretched across 100 rather than 25 groups.

and Bastian's post.
Gaile is definitely right when she says that amount of good drops scales with the amount of players in an area BUT if the area has a strong imballance between a few people who are farming a lot and those that are achieving virually nothing, you can feel that drop rates depends on other instances.

Example: When Realm of Anguish opened I started chest runs in the first hour and I got 27 gold drops out of 30 chests O_o
The only reason for this is that there were MANY people achieving nothing and me getting alot of drops. The game engine tried to maintain a constant gold rate for all players (as Gaile said) and this was only achievable by providing gold chests as there were not too many kills (and chest farmers) compared to the sheer amount of players trying their best and failing.
If you couldn't see the correlation now, I can give you plenty of additional examples.

Cacheelma · Dec 06, 2006, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ess Age

Gaile is definitely right when she says that amount of good drops scales with the amount of players in an area ....

The only reason for this is that there were MANY people achieving nothing and me getting alot of drops. The game engine tried to maintain a constant gold rate for all players (as Gaile said) and this was only achievable by providing gold chests as there were not too many kills (and chest farmers) compared to the sheer amount of players trying their best and failing.
If you couldn't see the correlation now, I can give you plenty of additional examples.

Maybe my skill in English (being my second language and all) is not good enough, but I can't seem to find Gaile saying the stuff I indicated in bold.

For the first sentence, I thought Gaile said specifically the opposite, didn't she? By "it's not that there are 10 items to drop stretched across 100 rather than 25 groups." doesn't she mean that the amount of drops has nothing to do with how many people playing in an area?

And about the engine tried to maintain gold rate and whatnot, where did she say that?

darktyco · Dec 06, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Er, pardon the intrusion, but what happens if you get flagged for farming?

Eviance · Dec 06, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Ess Age, I wish this were so but I think it all has to do with the luck of your character (and no I dont mean the title). I have two accounts... I can take my warrior or any character on my secondary account out and get excellent drops... I take any character on my primary account out and get crap or next to nothing. My friend can farm trolls for several hours and make a fortune, I can farm the same place, time, and so forth over and over and still never get what he is.
Some say that your account or characters are semi flagged from the moment they are made. They call it a good seed. *shrugs*
I have friends who can farm for weeks and never get a sup vigor. I go out and usually within the first couple of days I can get two. However I can not duplicate these results with my other account as hard as I have tried.

We can play tit of tat all we want, but I still think that what Gaile says is at least mostly if not entirely accurate.

Darktyco, if you get a farming flag your drops get crappy - go do a few missions or something and it supposedly comes off.

Ess Age · Dec 06, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

@Cacheelma: She says that the drop rate is not affected by the amount of players in an area, this is only possible if the total amount of drops scales. She's speaking of the drop rate and not of the amount of drops. Drop rate per player (globally seen) is constant.
Concerning the engine: I do not know if Gaile commented that. It's the only reasonable explanation that I can think of for extremely high gold item drop rates in highly frequented areas without pleople achieving much.
Another, more proir example is the drop rate after UW-farm updates. I had my best runs with 4-5 golds when everyone else stood in ToA crying that farming was nerfed. This might have been luck, but I have seen such coincidence several times.

@Eviance: I've never heard of this rumor and if I'm honest would says that there is not a bit of truth in it

The developers of Guild Wars were always trying to create an equal gaming experiece for every player (ballancing, nerfs, greens, new insignias etc.). Such a preselection would strongly violate their usual behaviour.

Cacheelma · Dec 06, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ess Age

@Cacheelma: She says that the drop rate is not affected by the amount of players in an area, this is only possible if the total amount of drops scales. She's speaking of the drop rate and not of the amount of drops. Drop rate per player (globally seen) is constant.

How can you be so sure of that? I don't think there's such thing as "drop rate per player is constant", other than "lucky person gets more, while unlucky people get less".

Thus, there's no need for scaling the amount of drops. If they're random and based on luck, it would be normal to see a guy gets more drops than other people.

Blackhawk · Dec 06, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eviance

Ess Age, I wish this were so but I think it all has to do with the luck of your character (and no I dont mean the title). I have two accounts... I can take my warrior or any character on my secondary account out and get excellent drops... I take any character on my primary account out and get crap or next to nothing. My friend can farm trolls for several hours and make a fortune, I can farm the same place, time, and so forth over and over and still never get what he is.
Some say that your account or characters are semi flagged from the moment they are made. They call it a good seed. *shrugs*
I have friends who can farm for weeks and never get a sup vigor. I go out and usually within the first couple of days I can get two. However I can not duplicate these results with my other account as hard as I have tried.

I'm inclined to believe that theory as well, as all the chars on my 2nd account seem to do much better drop wise than any of those on my 1st one.

Tombs is a prime example when it comes to Victos Axe or Bulwark as I've had more of those than I care to remember, my Ranger seems to be pretty much guaranteed 2 Greens or an Ecto during a run, where my Necro 9 times out of 10 comes out with stuff that goes straight to the Merchant.

Same applies with shards in FoW, they rain down when I take my Ranger, yet pretty poor drops with the Necro.

Same with Greens on any of the weekends.

CyberNigma · Dec 06, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

Wrong.

Other people farming the same area do not affect YOUR specific drop rate in that area, unless the person WITH you also overfarms the area.

...

Well said, Batou! You've explained things very well indeed!

I have to admit, I've been making a few *cough* runs into the Resplendant Makuun myself, as I'm intent on getting Darksong for my Paragon. I don't know why I think she needs it, but I do.

To the OP -- I think I've tried even more times than you, and I have to remind myself, "Green drops are very unusual" and that helps me to be a bit more patient. Good luck to you!

well it sounds like it's better to solo or farm with henchies/heroes then if the other players' overfarming can affect your drops...

Ess Age · Dec 06, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

@Cacheelma: I am relatively sure of my claim as I e.g. farmed Droknar long before there were bots. I had a decent gold drop rate but with the upcoming bot the gold drop rate decreased drastically. I experieced exactly this in several other regions. So, now tell me another reason for that, other than a global item distribution!

CyberNigma · Dec 06, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

maybe ANet needs a code review by a different set of devs that don't already have their eyes fixated on the drop algorithms. it wouldn't be the first time somerone had blinders on just because they wrote that particular snippet of code... just my opinion though.

Gaile Gray · Dec 06, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

I respect that you have what you feel are solid reasons to believe what you have come to believe. However, anecdotal evidence aside, drops truly are random. What does this mean?

This means a Mesmer is as likely to get an item as a Necromancer, Warrior, or Ritualist. No more and nor fewer items go to any profession, or to your second character, or to the one you created in one month as compared to another. No "orphan" characters here!
This means there is no increased likelihood that a sword will drop for a Warrior, or that a sword won't drop for an Assassin. Drops are random, in that your Ranger could, although mathematically unlikely, receive 117 hammers before she gets a bow. (Trust me, it happened to me! Ok, ok, only kidding. )
This means that if 1,000,000 players all decided, in the same hour, to try for a certain boss monster's Unique drop, the same percentage would be as successful across 400,000 instances of that map as if only 10 people were working on that item across 2 or 3 instances of that map. What other people are trying for, their luck, their acquisitions, do not affect you, unless they are in your party.

Now, the exception to the randomness, and the exception to even distribution of drops for each party, is well known to you: If you're going into an area repeatedly, the drops will be reduced. In that case you'll receive what I call our "Move along, nothing to farm here," message.

Now, I confess I've gone into RM many times in my thus far unsuccessful attempt to acquire Darksong. However, I've never gotten the "farming" message because I set self-limits on area entries. My time is valuable and I want the maximum chance of getting that Green. If I can, I'll learn to take on that mob solo so I don't have to try to wrest the item from Goren's steely grip. Plus, I'm a patient person. If I have to try 3 times each over 10 days rather than 30 times in a day, I can do that. I'm too pragmatic to accept a reduction in goodies.

I've done some casual "testing" on our special weekends. During the Green Weekend I didn't receive a single green. But during the Dye Weekend, I did feel that I was getting increased dyes. *shrug* Luck of the draw; randomness of the drops. I was just luckier one weekend over the other. I know there is no Super-Secret Evil Code of Doom (SSECOD) that is going to give you less than you're entitled to or certain items over certain other items. There is no such code for any character, or any account, or any profession, or any... anything. If you play normally, and even if you focus on an area, as long as you are reasonable, your chances are as good as anyone else's that you will get the items you seek.

I hope this information helps.

CyberNigma · Dec 06, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

that, of course, is still based on the assumption that the random number generator in the drop algorithm is working properly/based on a proper seed with respect to each character being used.

srand()
srand(1)
srand(time)
srand(time(NULL))
srand(time(10))

nmap supposedly at one point used: srand((tv.tv_sec ^ tv.tv_usec) ^ getpid())

none of them are the same as rand() which isn't wise to use either. all of them produce variable results (within a small subset of programming languages in the C family), several of them being very repeatable. so basically, nothing you say means anything if the underlying algorithm isn't generating pseudo-random (and I say pseudo because I doubt very seriously you have a nuclear decay-based RNG on-hand). as a software engineer (at an enterprise level that would put even GW's scale into perspective), I've seen quite impressive devices that are flawed merely because the numbers they generate are flawed and hence predictable/skewed.

surely you've got a mathemetician under your employ somewhere that could spend a few minutes just skimming over the algorithms to at least determine if there are any common mistakes made. people should not be able to predict some some degree of success which characters will end up with higher end drops more often than others. and this, just as much as you promise one thing, I promise has happened.

if, for example, your generator alrogithm is based off of time, then it will be the case that, depending upon the degree of precision in your algorithm, if 100,000 people entered that instance within the same second (regardless of the particular mn or ns), they they could most certainly end up with the same result based on a simple srand() or rand() derivative. I don't expect a community relations person to understand that, but the case can indeed and quite frequently does exist in other applications.

EDIT: btw, this isn't meant to contradict anything said about multiple instances affecting the overall drop-rate, but rather the fact that drop rates from one character to the next may not be random at all. as far as trying to make the game fair across the board, that is assuming everyone has an equal skill level. most of the people that can solo certain areas have quite more skill than the casual player. many of the pro farmers have so much more skill at finding ways to solo and get good loot that they aren't even comparable to most regular players. ANet, by doing what it does, is actually helping professionals (and bots programmed by professionals). If you wanted your gamer to be the socialist mecca that dream of (for whatever reason) you would make the drops for individual characters be the same across the board, regardless of the party size. Only then would the casual player have even the remotest chance of being just as able as the most elite pro farmer at getting the particular items that he/she wants. I'm sure the pros are out there cheering for you guys at ANet.

and please don't take this as someone wanting to bash the game or the devs. I entirely love this game and have pulled so many other people into it that it's not funny. whether it's an addiction, OCD (more likely), or what, I have plenty of interest in the game to bash certain componnents of it in the hope that it will make a better game and last longer than, well other games. there just seems to be a certain level of arrogance coming from the direction of ANet. this, I think was shown in its entirety by the people warning during the beta (which is supposed to be about warning) that the paragon, combined with watch yourself in a certain way was leading to trouble being completely and utterly ignored. that is, until recently when it was indeed deemed a problem either because it was too powerful, or unlike PvE'er, the PvP'ers were not bright enough to find a way around the problem, and it was nerfed. game developers are a dime a dozen, as countless companies have proven over the years. take heed from the people that actually play the game.

Ess Age · Dec 07, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Thanks Gaile for trying to smooth ruffled feathers (although we're completely calm of course

).
Your point 1 and 2 are common sense, I think. Those things are totally clear. But I still see some need for explanation for point 3.
"This means that if 1,000,000 players all decided, in the same hour, to try for a certain boss monster's Unique drop, the same percentage would be as successful across 400,000 instances of that map as [...]" the expression same percentage is what I'm confused of!

Let's consider two situations...
Situation 1: 1,000,000 player are trying to farm the boss and are successful. They gain 50,000 greens for that. (let's assume this)
Situation 2: 1,000,000 player are trying to farm the boss but only 100,000 are sucessful.
Now my question: Would they gain 50,000 or 5,000 greens for that.
Both cases use the percentage term but with other relations.

TadaceAce · Dec 07, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I 55'd Bramble Everthorn (which was hell to farm btw) 39 times before he dropped everthorn chakrams. Be persistant, if you can, make a farming build that is quick so you make some money doing it.